The Egyptian Diaspora - or lack thereof
10 Comments Published by Tom Gara on Wednesday, February 16 at Wednesday, February 16, 2005.
A discussion I have been having with a few people recently is that Egyptians, despite living in a fairly poor, developing country, do not make up the massive numbers of migrants as do other comparable counties.
What I mean is, think about Chinese, Pakistani, Indians, Lebanese, Turkish etc. Nearly every rich western country (and a lot of less rich ones too) would have entire massive communities made up of people from these countries. I know Australia, Ireland and the UK do, and I'm sure others do as well. France and Germany are something like 10% Muslim now, Germany thanks to its 5 million+ Turkish immigrants (UPDATE: Thomas in comments points out that this figure is...ummm...bullshit, and that it is more like 2 million Turkish (2.5%) and 3 million total muslims (3%) - I'll shut up now...) , and France with its North Africans. Compared to these countries, Egypt does not have a massive community of overseas economic migrants.
Egypt is heavily populated, has a massive peasant class and a huge lower class, offers little social mobility for the less fortunate, and lacks a lot of the freedoms that people often desire. You would think this would result in a steady flow of Egyptians heading abroad to start a new life.
You do get "professional" migration, especially into the US and UK (and, for some reason, Austria). That is, middle class, well educated Egyptians heading to places where their skills and education will earn them better pay and a better lifestyle. But there has never been a big outpouring of lower class Egyptians leaving the country to find better opportunities - at least not that I know.
There are a few possible reasons for this:
- (Relative) peace - unlike most of the other countries that have produced large overseas communities, Egypt has not had any civil war, invasion, major terrorist insurgency, dictatorship or ethnic/sectarian violence for a long, long time. (the '67 and '73 wars with Israel were significant, but did not impact the entire population, were finished within weeks not years, and were fought mainly in unpopulated areas)
- The Gulf - lots and lots of Egyptians go to earn money in Saudi Arabia, or the other Gulf states. More so than other North Africans or Levantine countries. And when you go to the Gulf to earn money, you do not move your whole family and life there for good - you leave your family at home, go there and earn big money for 5 years, sending enough home to keep the family going, then return with a big pile of delicious Gulf money.
- Its Just a Nice Place - related to the (relative) peace, maybe Egypt is just a (relatively) nice place to be, even for the peasant classes. A vibrant, energetic society, in a physically beautiful land, and no huge driving force pushing people to get out.
It is interesting though. I think a major indicator for a messed up country that needs help is the volume of its citizens who just want to get the hell out. Large scale outward immigration, especially of the middle/lower classes, is somehow a barometer of the standard of living and standard of government in each country. Hence, Australia has very few Canadian immigrants, but whole suburbs full of Cambodian or Vietnamese. I've never seen a district of Norwegian grocery stores anywhere in the world, but every major city has a Chinatown. And for many years, one of the biggest refugee communties in the world was the Afghani's in Pakistan - a community that practically dissapeared after the fall of the Taliban. Ironically, Pakistan itself is completely dependant on money coming in from Pakistanis living abroad (primarily in the UK). So one mans hellhole can be another mans refuge.
If anyone lives in a place with a big Egyptian community, I'd love to hear about it. And I'm not talking professional migrants like doctors and engineers, I mean people leaving looking for a better life in large numbers. I hear Detroit and all of Michigan have large Arab communities - but mainly Omani's and Yemeni. Any bloggers from this region, your comments would be great.
What I mean is, think about Chinese, Pakistani, Indians, Lebanese, Turkish etc. Nearly every rich western country (and a lot of less rich ones too) would have entire massive communities made up of people from these countries. I know Australia, Ireland and the UK do, and I'm sure others do as well. France and Germany are something like 10% Muslim now, Germany thanks to its 5 million+ Turkish immigrants (UPDATE: Thomas in comments points out that this figure is...ummm...bullshit, and that it is more like 2 million Turkish (2.5%) and 3 million total muslims (3%) - I'll shut up now...) , and France with its North Africans. Compared to these countries, Egypt does not have a massive community of overseas economic migrants.
Egypt is heavily populated, has a massive peasant class and a huge lower class, offers little social mobility for the less fortunate, and lacks a lot of the freedoms that people often desire. You would think this would result in a steady flow of Egyptians heading abroad to start a new life.
You do get "professional" migration, especially into the US and UK (and, for some reason, Austria). That is, middle class, well educated Egyptians heading to places where their skills and education will earn them better pay and a better lifestyle. But there has never been a big outpouring of lower class Egyptians leaving the country to find better opportunities - at least not that I know.
There are a few possible reasons for this:
- (Relative) peace - unlike most of the other countries that have produced large overseas communities, Egypt has not had any civil war, invasion, major terrorist insurgency, dictatorship or ethnic/sectarian violence for a long, long time. (the '67 and '73 wars with Israel were significant, but did not impact the entire population, were finished within weeks not years, and were fought mainly in unpopulated areas)
- The Gulf - lots and lots of Egyptians go to earn money in Saudi Arabia, or the other Gulf states. More so than other North Africans or Levantine countries. And when you go to the Gulf to earn money, you do not move your whole family and life there for good - you leave your family at home, go there and earn big money for 5 years, sending enough home to keep the family going, then return with a big pile of delicious Gulf money.
- Its Just a Nice Place - related to the (relative) peace, maybe Egypt is just a (relatively) nice place to be, even for the peasant classes. A vibrant, energetic society, in a physically beautiful land, and no huge driving force pushing people to get out.
It is interesting though. I think a major indicator for a messed up country that needs help is the volume of its citizens who just want to get the hell out. Large scale outward immigration, especially of the middle/lower classes, is somehow a barometer of the standard of living and standard of government in each country. Hence, Australia has very few Canadian immigrants, but whole suburbs full of Cambodian or Vietnamese. I've never seen a district of Norwegian grocery stores anywhere in the world, but every major city has a Chinatown. And for many years, one of the biggest refugee communties in the world was the Afghani's in Pakistan - a community that practically dissapeared after the fall of the Taliban. Ironically, Pakistan itself is completely dependant on money coming in from Pakistanis living abroad (primarily in the UK). So one mans hellhole can be another mans refuge.
If anyone lives in a place with a big Egyptian community, I'd love to hear about it. And I'm not talking professional migrants like doctors and engineers, I mean people leaving looking for a better life in large numbers. I hear Detroit and all of Michigan have large Arab communities - but mainly Omani's and Yemeni. Any bloggers from this region, your comments would be great.
just for the record:
Germany does not have "5+ million Turkish immigrants". About 2 million Turkish people live here and in total about 3 million muslims. With a total population of about 80 million that comes to population ratios of 2,5% (Turkish) and 3,75% (Muslims).
As for the Egyptian diaspora: I remember that the area around Edgware Road in London has a dense network of Egyptian restaurants and my landlord in London, who happened to be an Egyptian, told me that "you'll find thousands of Egyptians in that area". But maybe some thousands is not a significant number in a city as large as London and so this doesn't count as a "proper diaspora".
I hear Montreal has a large populations and newyork has Little Egypt!
Jersey has loadz of egyptians - with foul and falafel shops.
but again, it weird.
people like to live with their parents. parents expect their kids to stay with themas they grow old as a formof repaying them for all what the parents did for their kids.
maybe that's it
Tom, maybe they are too lazy to move. :)
To be honest Tom, I think you have pissed the boat on this one.
If you look at the movement of people from the east to west, south to north however you want to looking at it the patterns fit perfectly with colonisation. (especially immigration before the 90s).
People moved from their home cys to that of their "oppressors" (for lack of a better word). The North Africans/Middle East to France, HK to the UK and Canada, Indians/Pakistanis to the UK/Canada/AU. The turkish were drawn out and enticed by the germans/dutch/northern europeans to come and work in their countries.
The movement of young bright talent in recent years is not making a large dent in the make up of immigrant communities in the 'developing world'. (With the exception of the Indians in the US and the exodus of HK nationals in the late 90s). Commonwealth to commonwealth immigration is much easier than regular movement and I've been told the same thing is true within the former french colonies.
Once a people settle and become successful, more will always follow, usually to the same cys their countrymen have gone to.
Egypt's lack of large scale presence in other countries can most likely be attributed to this, to its own national strength.
dammit, missed the boat, missed the boat. See above.
Here I was thinking "pissed the boat" was some cool Canadian expression :)
Asha you're point is mostly valid, but it doest reaslly cover everything. The mass movements of mainland and ethnic Chinese, Afghanis, Iraqi's, Turkish, Cambodians, Vietnamese, (former) Yugoslavians etc has much more to do with political, economic and social conditions at home than it does with colonialism or "oppressor" countries.
And my point was, political, economic and social indicators in Egypt are relatively similar to these countries, as far as poverty, political/social freedom, social mobility etc is concerned.
Good point, Tom.
I tend to agree with your reasons for the lack of Egyptian diaspora.
There is one Egyptian in Mersin (Turkey) - my boss. He didn't come here for economic or political reasons but for old-fashioned love.
Fair enough Tom. I do agree with your comments of the somewhat smaller immigrant groups (although I still maintain that the movement of many turks into western europe is the product of european gov'ts seeking them out as labourers, mainly in the 70s).
It seems that much immigration now-a-days is sponsored and think that the lack of large scale movement among Egyptian may be because they do not have the support structures some of these other cymen do (in addition to your points, seem on point)
I'm pulling at straws here, feel free to correct/comment.
Speak of the Devil..here's an interesting little post on the BBC about young Egyptians:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4226201.stm
Now, as far as Arabs in Detroit goes..Having lived there for nearly 2 years, I really can't help but believe they got "duped" into the whole Americana thing..Could they really be happy there? Can anyone? Lord knows I tried, but Arabs don't have a huge drinking culture..and that's what got me through it..
Seriously though, a lot of them didn't have the luxury of working "good" jobs. But, I think many knew that coming over, and it's the self sacrifice(...so that their offspring will have the chance to go to college, to get a good job, make money,etc) that drives people to pack it up and head on over...self perservation for your family..in the long run.
An interesting note is that many muslims have become wary of traveling/living in the States b/c of discrimination after 9-11. I wonder if this affects Arab immigration into Detroit, which remains one of the country's most widely segregated city--on every ethnic and racial level. Dearborn (THE #1 Arab Suburb of Detroit) interacts very little with communities outside of Dearborn.