A Different Drummer

Looking through some old emails, I came across a transcript of an interview done just after I arrived in the UAE last year. We turned some of it into a story, but to do full justice to the coolness of the guy, I'm going to post the whole thing. Enjoy:

Neil Turok's brilliant career has brought together his two great passions: theoretical physics and Africa. The son of two of South Africa's most prominent anti-apartheid activists, Cambridge University's former chair of mathematical physics is a leading force in the search for a Grand Unified Theory, a single mathematical equation that explains everything in the known universe.

In partnership with Stephen Hawking, Turok was instrumental in the development of string theory, which states that the fundamental building blocks of the universe are one-dimensional "strings." It is seen by many physicists as the most promising path to the eventual discovery of a unified theory.

In 2003, he founded the African Institute for Mathematical Sciences (AIMS), a pan-African postgraduate research center. Last February, he was awarded the TED prize in recognition of his achievements in both string theory and the founding of AIMS; on receiving the prize he said his wish was to see the next Einstein emerge from Africa.

In Dubai for the World Summit on Innovation and Entrepreneurship, he spoke to The National about the future of physics, why mathematics still matters, and how the UAE can contribute to the search for the next Einstein.

Will a grand unified theory mean the end of physics?

That is the goal - to find the ultimate description of nature at its most basic level. The goal was always to find a consistent mathematical framework that will be complete. But it is like mathematics: arithmetic is complete at a basic level, we know what one plus one is and so on. But that doesn't mean there aren't still untold mysteries to be understood.

We want to get the basic rules of nature. Are we going to get there? I don't know. Stephen Hawking predicted we would. He said that within 20 years we would have a unified theory. I was an undergraduate then, I went to his lecture at Cambridge. I was skeptical then, and I'm still skeptical (laughs). But I think there's no way to make progress without just going for it. Even if we don't get there, it's going to be an interesting journey along the way.

What would the role of physicists be once that theory is discovered?

They will have to work out the consequences! There will be an infinite amount of work in understanding the consequences.

The complex behaviour of complicated systems is always going to be hard to explain, and very interesting. So for example, how do stars form, how do galaxies form? How and why did life form? All of these things come down to the basic laws of nature, and we're a long way from understanding a details of all that.

And a unified theory would be a helping hand on the way to understanding that?

I think at some level it will be a helping hand. I mean, it won't explain how stars form - we know all the relevant physics there: Newton's laws of gravity, atomic physics and so on. Its just a big messy problem, like understanding the weather. Understanding string theory isn't really going to help with that.

What it will explain, I hope, is the Big Bang. And because everything we see came out of the Big Bang, that is a very fundamental question: why did the universe emerge, filled with matter, expanding into the structure that we see? That is something that string theory should explain.

People usually struggle to see how theoretical physics really connects to the way we live our lives. Would there be a consequence of a unified theory that would change the way we live?

No, and I see that as a plus (laughs)

No terrible new weapons?

Well that would certainly be dangerous, if the new physics provided us with a new weapon. I don't think there is any indication of that so far. But I have to say, there are possibilities. If we understand the Big Bang, there is obviously the risk that some person in the future might try to make another one.

For the most part, I think string theory is entirely useless in the practical sense. But I think most people want something more in their lives apart from everyday existence. They want to wonder about where we come from, why are we here, who are we, how does the world work?

There is huge popular interest in this kind of science. Just look at Stephen Hawking. Wherever he goes there are huge crowds, people want to know what his ideas are. I think it's a wonderful thing, and it has huge power in bridging barriers betweeen cultures and countries.

Basically, bright people from any country can get into this field. And when they do, it is very stimulating because people from different cultures all have slightly different ways of approaching problems, but they all agree on what is good science and what is bad science.

Scientists have a real objectivity, which is interesting. We all agree that two plus two is four, there is no disagreements about that, whether you're Muslim or Christian or whoever you are. Likewise when it comes to fundamental physics, we all agree on the rules, what is a consistent mathematical picture and what isn't. Getting all of humanity to participate in this high-level intellectual pursuit is actually a great way to connect the world.

Physics is notorious for the atom bomb, but everyone knows that Einstein is about so much more than that. And all over the world people are waiting for the next Einstein. This person could come from any culture, and I think that idea is great. The fact that physics isn't very useful is a secondary concern. Ask a young person, do you want to do something useful with your life, or do you want to do something amazing? They want to do something amazing.

There is a big trend for young people to study subjects that are needed in the workforce these days. Even in the sciences, people are looking at IT, chemistry, things that are in demand.

Well I see all these as a spinoff. Look at NASA. Kennedy said 'lets go to the moon,' but what is useful about that? There is nothing useful about the moon. But look at what happened as a spinoff of that. Computers. Velcro! So much useful knowledge came out of the space programme.

It is the same thing with CERN (the European Atomic Research Center) in Geneva. They look at the fundamental structure of matter, higgs bosons. Utterly useless for anything real. But the World Wide Web was invented there. The economic spinoff has been enormous, its the best investment ever made.

If you invest in the pursuit of deep knowledge, its extremely cost effective. Really cheap - theoretical physics cost nothing, just a pencil and paper. Students at AIMS cost $10,000 for ten months, very very cheap. But what do you get in return?

Most of the students who do this stuff will spin off into IT or business, more practical fields. But by getting their minds going, getting them to aim high and question the fundamental rules of the world, they get into the right mindset to be amazing at anything.

A lot of what is wrong with approaches to aid is that it aims very low, even in the language that they use. Look at poverty reduction - they get a negative, which is poverty, and counter it with another negative? What an awful way to look at the world.

We should look at Africa as 700 million people who, some of whom are brilliant. We should identify the brilliant minds, nurture them, connect them with the world, give them opportunities - they will be the ones who fix the problems in their countries. None of the current aid programs do that. They all say we need primary schools, food, medicine, that Africa doesn't need high level stuff.

This approach does not work. In the last fourty years, they have spent one trillion dollars on Africa, and there is very little to show for it. So what I'm talking about is really cheap, and it will really surprise people. If you just come up with a small number, 10 or 100, really brilliant minds, it will shake the world. People will say 'wow, there are some brilliant people there, maybe we should start investing.' And maybe we will get a Bill Gates for Africa, or a Sergey Brin.

I'm convinced they're there. They just need a chance, and they'll be the ones who fix their economies.

It seems like role models are important. In Egypt, the Nobel Prize winner Ahmed Zuwail inspired a lot of Egyptians to take up science. Is this happening across Africa?

No, not yet. There are some examples. A guy in Ghana, Francois Zalotti, a nuclear physicist, is regarded by people there as the country's greatest scientist. They made a postage stamp of him! He's a wonderful guy, very modest. He was head of the Ghanain Energy Commission, and has been very very influential.

You actually find that a lot across Africa, the people with the scientific backgrounds, the ones who did well in science, rapidly become influential. The education minister in Rwanda, just after the genocide, he was a mathematician, the head of a math faculty in the US. He was incredibly effective in rebuilding the education system there, recognised around the world for it.

The current minister of science and technology in South Africa, he did his degree in Applied Maths in jail. He was part of Steve Biko's movement. He came out of jail, and as a refugee in Zimbabwe, did a masters on black holes and general relativity. He is now the only minister in the South African cabinet who consistently gets a ten out of ten rating by all the newspapers, and he is not in the ANC, he is in an opposition party.

People with fundamental science backgrounds, it isn't inevitable, but they do bring logical, rational thinking, they bring ideas about impartiality, ideas about internationalism with them. Science is international, based on the logic of rationality. That's what you get with good science training, and if some of these people go into government and business, it can only be good news.

You made a pretty high profile wish last month at the TED conference. You want to expand AIMS to 15 campuses across Africa, and wished for the next Einstein to be African. How has the response been?

Phenomenal. When we started AIMS, we wanted to do something to help Africa. I don't know a thing about business or entrepreneurship, but I do know a lot about mathematics. So I started a maths institute. What happened since has massively exceeded our expectations. The students coming through have been extremely bright, incredibly motivated. I started to see that a lot of these people will go far in high level science.

I was talking about this to the grand-daughter of Max Born, founder of probability theory in quantum mechanics, and she said to me 'this sounds like how the Jews first got into physics.' There was essentially no Jewish physical scientists before 1880. Hertz was the first. They never got in because they were discriminated against.

But once they got in, they encouraged each other, supported each other, and in the twentieth century they absolutely changed everything. Now I'm not guaranteeing this will happen, but Africa is richer culturally than any other continent, it have variety, diversity in everything. Ethiopians, Madagacans, Nigerians, phenomenal variety. Its an incredible source of human talent. So I think that if Africa does get serious about science, the next Einstein is a possibility.

When they called up up and said 'you've won the TED prize, what is your wish,' I knew what it was immediately. I'd already discussed it with students just to egg them on. To set the standards high I told them straight - we want the next Einstein. So the wish was always there.

A week before TED I was wavering, quite nervous, and I called my brother. He's a successful businessman, and I told him that I was thinking of changing it to 'lets build a high skills economy in Africa.' And he told me 'don't even think about it.' He knows a good catchy line when he hears it.

As a scientist, you are always a worried about saying something unproven, because if you get it wrong, your peers will never let you forget it. My brother said 'just go with it,'and I did.

The response has been phenomenal. We have raised over $2 million in the last month, got the support of people like Richard Branson, Bob Geldof, David Cameron, the leader of the UK Conservative Party, PriceWaterhouse Coopers, lots of big companies. This idea has really caught on, people get it. It took me twenty years to understand what Einstein was talking about, but people just got this idea immediately.

We will open a new AIMS in Nigeria in July, fully funded - actually better funded than the AIMS in South Africa. I've just today spoken with some people in Egypt who want to see an AIMS open there, and what better place could there be? Geometry came from Egypt, so much of modern knowledge came from Egypt.

Do you detect much interest in maths and physics when you speak with leaders in this part of the world?

I'm not an expert, but there is a general feeling that the Muslim world, for whatever reason, lost interest in the basic sciences 200-300 years ago. This was a tragedy, because until then, it was a center for this kind of learning.

People are starting to pick up on this. At the moment, obviously people here are making money very successfully in other ways. So whether the leaders here will get more interested in basic sciences, it remains to be seen. There are enormous benefits to investing in it.

I am trying to pursuade the UAE that if it wants to be seen as a leading country, one of the most effective ways to do it is to invest in smart Africans. Instead of bringing them here to clean hotel rooms and do the basic work, invest in the brilliant ones.

What would happen is that when this group of brilliant Africans change their countries, it will be known that they were supported all the way by the UAE. You can imagine how that would build this country's reputation as a leading place. Europe hasn't done it yet, America hasn't done it yet. So it's such a big, obvious opportunity. And it fits so well with the whole futuristic vibe of the place. Go for something even more futuristic! But do it with humans, not buildings.